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Feedback On Farrier Regulation
Post At
05/10/2005 - 7:06 am
reply from
Frank Lessiter
What do you think about the AFA's plan to survey the farrier schools and the task force's proposal calling for the testing and registration of farriers?
Reply at
05/10/2005 - 9:06 am
reply from
Kim Hillegas
Personally I don't feel that the AFA has the qualifications to regulate and certify and register farriers!
I don't think that their footwork guidelines promote healthy feet period. And to present themselves as THE measure to which farriers need to aspire to is extremely conceited!
As a NON AFA certified farrier I have too often gone behind a practicing AFA CF and/or CJF and been able to return the poor horse to a soundness level reported by the horse owners as being the best their horse has ever moved! Sometimes this means simple trimming of the hoof and sometimes this means shoeing the horse. But in every case it was evident that the CF or CJF did NOT understand horse anatomy, locomotion and hoof function.
I have long held the contention that being licensed or certified does NOT make one a good farrier just as being a licensed driver does not automatically equate to a qualified, safe driver!
That being said I AM in favor of some kind of test given in a written form that judges the KNOWLEDGE of a horse's anatomy, the hoof structure and its actual function and the locomotion of the horse!
From the work done by these aforementioned " AFA CF/CJF farriers" I continually see that they don't understand this basic element of keeping a horse's footwork in tune with his conformation and his expected performance!
Now, that being said, I don't think the AFA should be the organization to develop, administer and judge that test either- mainly based on the connection of a written test score to an organization that already is NOT promoting healthy footwork! I think a completely new and separate organization should be developed! Maybe call it S.H.O.E? "Sound Hoofcare Of Equines"? Who knows.
I don't say this lightly, but I do say it loudly. While I am a member of my state farrier association and I know full well that they promote the AFA standards, I am constantly at odds to achieve the so called recognition (and subsequent higher paychecks) received by being AFA CF/CJF.
But I cannot in good conscience butcher a foot the way the AFA guidelines insist need be done in order to pass their tests. Tests which do not encourage evaluation of the horse at hand, or functional footwork. Tests that have unrealistic guidelines that promote whittling away of the hoof structure. Tests that are completely subjective to the personally slanted views of the usually one or two judges doing the certifying.
Attending many many clinics & seminars and precertification clinics the constant comment made(ironically enough by the certifiers themselves) is, "Shoeing to pass the certification is NOT the shoeing you will be doing every day."
Now I know from taking other tests that in order to pass a test(especially one with time constraints) you have to become efficient in the methods being tested. That means you have to do THAT kind of work daily in order to achieve that level of efficiency and self evaluate for comparison to the guidelines. I refuse to do that to the horses in my care!
If there is to be a governing board of licensing for farriers then I think that a written test on conformation, locomotion, hoof physiology, leg and hoof pathology is the way to go. A practical exam can be one wherein the farrier judges the horse and its needs and shoes accordingly. The judging body then compares their findings and the actual shoeing job applied.
But then that means that the judging body and the testing farriers need to be in accordance as to what will benefit the horse.
Maybe the practical should not be a one day or two day test? Maybe it should be a term length test- say where the horse is photographed, videoed, evaluated, shod, judged and then maintained by that farrier and then re evaluated, re videoed, re shod and re judged (BY THE ORIGINAL JUDGING BODY) 6 months later? Since a farrier deals with a horse(generally) over the long term and most farriers are committed to their work this type of test will rule out those just interested in making a quick buck!It will also reveal whether the footwork being applied is helping or hindering the horse. Videos and photographs are impartial observers.
Then a judging or regulating body needs to think further- How about these licensed farriers only doing work for "licensed horseowners"? Horseowners who have been required to take a course on proper horse care?
Will this regulating board offer such a licensing course to the horseowner?
Will attendance by the horseowner and farrier and subsequent passing assign a limited or zero liability clause to this licensed partnership?
And if the farriers are to be licensed then is the regulating board going to offer some connection to or assign a "malpractice insurance" for farriers working for horseowners refusing to become licensed equine caretakers?
Personally I think there is a tremendous amount of weight being placed on farrier's bent backs to keep a horse sound when so much of indiviual soundness issues go straight back to the breeder, trainer and the daily management of the horse. (Let's not forget the weather and environment issues)
in a nutshell: I say a resounding "NO!" or is that "NEIGH!" to the AFA's involvement to regulating farriers!
Kim Hillegas
Feet First Farrier Service
I don't think that their footwork guidelines promote healthy feet period. And to present themselves as THE measure to which farriers need to aspire to is extremely conceited!
As a NON AFA certified farrier I have too often gone behind a practicing AFA CF and/or CJF and been able to return the poor horse to a soundness level reported by the horse owners as being the best their horse has ever moved! Sometimes this means simple trimming of the hoof and sometimes this means shoeing the horse. But in every case it was evident that the CF or CJF did NOT understand horse anatomy, locomotion and hoof function.
I have long held the contention that being licensed or certified does NOT make one a good farrier just as being a licensed driver does not automatically equate to a qualified, safe driver!
That being said I AM in favor of some kind of test given in a written form that judges the KNOWLEDGE of a horse's anatomy, the hoof structure and its actual function and the locomotion of the horse!
From the work done by these aforementioned " AFA CF/CJF farriers" I continually see that they don't understand this basic element of keeping a horse's footwork in tune with his conformation and his expected performance!
Now, that being said, I don't think the AFA should be the organization to develop, administer and judge that test either- mainly based on the connection of a written test score to an organization that already is NOT promoting healthy footwork! I think a completely new and separate organization should be developed! Maybe call it S.H.O.E? "Sound Hoofcare Of Equines"? Who knows.
I don't say this lightly, but I do say it loudly. While I am a member of my state farrier association and I know full well that they promote the AFA standards, I am constantly at odds to achieve the so called recognition (and subsequent higher paychecks) received by being AFA CF/CJF.
But I cannot in good conscience butcher a foot the way the AFA guidelines insist need be done in order to pass their tests. Tests which do not encourage evaluation of the horse at hand, or functional footwork. Tests that have unrealistic guidelines that promote whittling away of the hoof structure. Tests that are completely subjective to the personally slanted views of the usually one or two judges doing the certifying.
Attending many many clinics & seminars and precertification clinics the constant comment made(ironically enough by the certifiers themselves) is, "Shoeing to pass the certification is NOT the shoeing you will be doing every day."
Now I know from taking other tests that in order to pass a test(especially one with time constraints) you have to become efficient in the methods being tested. That means you have to do THAT kind of work daily in order to achieve that level of efficiency and self evaluate for comparison to the guidelines. I refuse to do that to the horses in my care!
If there is to be a governing board of licensing for farriers then I think that a written test on conformation, locomotion, hoof physiology, leg and hoof pathology is the way to go. A practical exam can be one wherein the farrier judges the horse and its needs and shoes accordingly. The judging body then compares their findings and the actual shoeing job applied.
But then that means that the judging body and the testing farriers need to be in accordance as to what will benefit the horse.
Maybe the practical should not be a one day or two day test? Maybe it should be a term length test- say where the horse is photographed, videoed, evaluated, shod, judged and then maintained by that farrier and then re evaluated, re videoed, re shod and re judged (BY THE ORIGINAL JUDGING BODY) 6 months later? Since a farrier deals with a horse(generally) over the long term and most farriers are committed to their work this type of test will rule out those just interested in making a quick buck!It will also reveal whether the footwork being applied is helping or hindering the horse. Videos and photographs are impartial observers.
Then a judging or regulating body needs to think further- How about these licensed farriers only doing work for "licensed horseowners"? Horseowners who have been required to take a course on proper horse care?
Will this regulating board offer such a licensing course to the horseowner?
Will attendance by the horseowner and farrier and subsequent passing assign a limited or zero liability clause to this licensed partnership?
And if the farriers are to be licensed then is the regulating board going to offer some connection to or assign a "malpractice insurance" for farriers working for horseowners refusing to become licensed equine caretakers?
Personally I think there is a tremendous amount of weight being placed on farrier's bent backs to keep a horse sound when so much of indiviual soundness issues go straight back to the breeder, trainer and the daily management of the horse. (Let's not forget the weather and environment issues)
in a nutshell: I say a resounding "NO!" or is that "NEIGH!" to the AFA's involvement to regulating farriers!
Kim Hillegas
Feet First Farrier Service
Reply at
05/11/2005 - 10:31 am
reply from
Jon Bonci
Much information has been printed and stated recently about the position of the AFA relating to farrier licensing and education. Unfortunately, much of this information has been printed out of context. A full report will be made available from the AFA within the next week. It will be mailed to all AFA members.
We welcome your input on this and other issues pertaining to farriery.
If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to contact either:
Craig Trnka, CJF
President, American Farrier's Association
505-235-5952
cathorseshoeing@aol.com
Bryan Quinsey
Executive Director, American Farrier's Association
859-233-7411
bquinsey@americanfarriers.org.
We welcome your input on this and other issues pertaining to farriery.
If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to contact either:
Craig Trnka, CJF
President, American Farrier's Association
505-235-5952
cathorseshoeing@aol.com
Bryan Quinsey
Executive Director, American Farrier's Association
859-233-7411
bquinsey@americanfarriers.org.
Reply at
05/11/2005 - 11:22 pm
reply from
Kim Hillegas
Well, since you asked....
I printed out and read the "Special Report" To AfA Board of Directors which is listed on the American Farriers Journal Home Page. First I'd ike to say that the underlying current of the entire paper has an alarmist attitude!
To take a text written in 1910 and insert the word "farrier" wherever "medical' or "doctor" was originally used is IMO extremely subversive!
As important as our profession is to the horse world I for one do NOT claim to put myself on an equal level (nor above) those in the medical field!
There was a reason that the medical field needed regulating way back in 1910- because of all the crack pots and snake oil sellers out there electrifying people and singeing them to supposed better health! Come to think of it THAT still goes on only now its under the moniker "Holistic".
While I DO agree that a lot of people claiming to be professional farriers and taking money from people shouldn't be allowed near a horse until they can identify it's bones, tendons and muscles(or at least know which breed of horse is standing in the cross ties); I do NOT think that the AFA should be the one to administrate regulation nor do I feel that farriers need to be LICENSED! (Please read my first post for my reasons- as I don't want to have to retype all that all over again.)
After you get through reading the 1910 propoganda we now get the definitions of "Professionalism" and "Intellect". I can't argue with Webster. But I wonder if the AFA has the intellect to understand what they are proposing! I know through first hand experience that many already AFA CF and AFA CJF's are NOT professionals(even though their business cards say so)! There are a few who are Pros, but the majority do NOT do professional footwork!
The "Special Report" goes on to compare populations of The United Kingdom with the population of The United States, then attempts to make a correlation of farriers per capita.
However, I was under the impression that farriers worked on number of head of horses? NOT people!
The AFA claims to use numbers from a "published source right after they say that those numbers are hard to find! HUH???
They go on to estimate the number of head of horses, then an estimation of full time farriers and then they are generous enough to give each of us full time farriers a 250 horse roster to make our businesses with! Magnanimous of them! Wouldn't you say so? So is the AFA proposing that it would be illegal for part-time farriers to ply their trades?
The next paragraph deals with anecdotal evidence of people entering and leaving the farrier industry which creates competition for established farriers. Well isn't that sort of an oxymoron? How do new wet behind the ears farriers challenge established farrier's businesses? It has been my experience that the new guy on the block gets the horses and clients nobody wants to do anyway!
Sure these new guys come out and undercut the fees of established farriers but who wants to work for cheapskates? If I've been keeping that horse sound for several years now and the horseowner choses to go with a newby who is 5 or ten bucks cheaper than me how is my being "Licensed" going to stop that?
Then we get to read about Schools and course offerings and the AFA does touch breifly on the new fad we are seeing of the 8 - 16 hour zip course on natural barefoot trimming for backyard horse owners ( again read EL CHEAPO here). How is my being licensed going to change that? And if these people are going to do their own horses - I say more power to 'em- they'll call one of us when Dobbin hurts their back or gets so lame he can't walk. Is the AFA proposing to make it illegal to trim your own horse's feet?
The AFA's final blurb on the industry and manpower issue seems concerned that the student won't know what they are going to get for their money. Well, any school I looked into had a list of their course offerings, the expectations of the student and what educational level you would be leaving with dependent on the course you signed up for! IS the AFA proposing that only schools accredited by them will turn out "professional" quality farriers? Sounds comuunistic to me! I'd imagine that a lawyer from Harvard thinks they are better than Lawyers graduating from Princeton- wouldn't you? Wouldn't the proof be in whomever's business is more successful? Especially in whomever is still plying their profession 15 years or more later?
OK, now we get to the REALLY REALLY Scarey part of their presentation. (Can we say Marxist here?) First they WRONGLY state "The State of Florida has recently enacted a veterinary practice act which includes farriers, defining farrier work as veterinary practice and lumps farriers with equine massage therapists, and equine chiropractors." I will say this very s l o w l y and very CLEARLY the AFA is DEAD WRONG on this statement! I live in Florida! I was part of the movement that defined that bill! The bill (Florida SB958) clearly SEPERATES, I'll say that again; CLEARLY SEPERATES the farrier and many othe equine health care providers FROM the veterinary practices law! We pushed deliberately for clear wording on the veterinary law because the OLD law HAD listed farriers in as veterinary practices! You can erad the full wording of the law at http://www.flsenate.gov when you get to the main page on the sidebar where it says "jump to bill" input this number: 958 you can then view the wording of the bill in PDF form or as a web page. SO PLEASE DO NOT be scared by the AFA's tactics to bully you into thinking farriers are under the same laws as Vets! At least NOT in the state of FLorida! I cannot speak for Pennsylvania or Arizona- someone else will have to research those AFA claims!
Keep reading folks! This gets better! Drink another cup of coffee!
The AFA goes on to talk about licensing for Physicians and Lawyers and regulated crafts like plumbers and electricians. well, such crafts deal with finite, static, exacting specifications. This pipe needs to be schedule such and such for hot water, or cold water, or specific pressures. This wire needs to be such and such guage for a specific amperage etc/ Finites that can be determined in a laboratory and according to specific formulas. The farrier that developes the specific formula to keep any horse sound and performing its best under any condition regardless of its management will be the farrier the world will put on a throne! Horses are not static, nor specific, nor good scientific specimens!
Physicians and lawyers have specific codes, ethics, governing bodies, mal practice insurance, ongoing required regulated educational courses and while I'd LOVE to rake in the big bucks they do, I certainly don't want their headaches! Nor do I want to be the brunt of derisionary "lawyer type Jokes" Let's see: "A lawyer, a doctor and a farrier all walked into a bar....." Nope, doesn't quite work does it?
The next page is titled:
"What should the AFA do, and why should we do it?"
Oh! oh! pick me! Pick me! I can answer that!
You should do NOTHING because it is NOT necessary that YOU do MORE than you already
have done! Period. This should really be end of sentence. But I'll elaborate... come on you didn't think I was gonna stop now did you? Here is where you really get to understand the reasoning behind the AFA's wanting to regulate and license us.
Their first point wants to survey every farrier school in North America now- not just the US! OK, I'll admit I don't know how many Farrier Schools are in Mexico or Canada but in the beginning of this "Special Report" the AFA was only talking about farrier education in the U.S.! When did Mexico and Canada become states? Is Cuba going to be part of their survey too?
This survey is to document the "quality of instruction, instructor qualifications, physical facilities, costs, admission requirements, student retention, and curriculum. Ok, wel,l except for the first two the remainder can be sheer number input and statistical information. Quality of instruction and Instructor Qualifications are definitely subjective and who will supply the criteria to judge these on? The AFA? I sincerely hope NOT!
I really like the part where the AFA NOW will accept input from "all farriers and all farrier organizations, not just the AFA". Hmmm isn't that a new slant? Isn't their own "Special Report" and subsequent undertaking and desire to be the governing body to regulate and license farriers at odds with that statement?
Their second point goes on to explain how they want to develop a model curriculum so that there would be a "UNIFORM BODY OF KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS". Uh HUH, again, based on which criteria? Who says that the AFA way of farrier work is the only way and the exact way to provide proper hoofcare? Kinda leaves out individualism and creative thinking doesn't it?
The AFA does go on to say they'll accept input from other farrier organizations... you mean they are going to be willing to alter their current standards? They will be willing to LISTEN to other sources?
...and then get this, "cooperation from but not under the control of Veterinarians"!
Since I am already swimming upstream I might as well tread water and state something that all of us have said at least once: "Since when does a VET know proper hoofcare?" Now, before any vets reading this get their nose in a crook, I am sure there are a bunch of you out there with years of experience and even many with farrier skills and backgrounds that actually have a great understanding of the horse's foot; and even a few of you work closely with farrier organizations and can disseminate some very good information. But you don't do our job every day(and most I've met , wouldn't want to; we don't do your job every day(nor would many of us want to); but for some reason the average horseowner thinks that because YOU have a "Dr." In front of your name , you know more about the foot than we do! Both of us know that you get a limited amount of course hours in hoof care and unless you specialize in lameness then you only have those few hours worth of knowledge. Sorry, but when you work with something every day you tend to develope a better understanding of it PROVIDED you are a progressive thinker and have an insatiable curiosity- which a GOOD farrier does have! Now that I have made my disclaimer to get back to the AFA's "Special Report"...
They go on in their second point to talk about basic requirements of physical structure, faculty and competence then they go on to accreditation. WHO will be assigning accreditation? And they say that schools that don't meet that criteria will lose their accredititation. Mighty powerful aren't they? We give it and we take it away! So says the AFA!
Now comes the revelation!: They say that with such an accredited model in place then it would be possible to look for grant money or other financial support from equine organizations, state extension services or foundations to provide quality education for the farrier student.
WHOAH! WHAT?
First they say they will be designing a "specific curriculum" to ensure "uniform knowledge and skills" and they will be determining which schools get accredited based on meeting those criteria, but now the schools need grant monies and financial support to provide "quality education"? And tuition from students is for....? Will these grant monies be available as scholarships? or to offset tuition costs?
Hmmm, are you beginning to see the real reason behhind the AFA push to regulate and license farriers? Could it be that they saw the number of schools teaching the tremendous amounts of students and realized the potential for dollars that the AFA was NOT getting because each school has their own graduating Certificate?
Sure, I'll grant you that not every student that graduates from farrier school becomes a full time farrier. Heck, many students don't even finish the course! This profession has a high attrition rate! It takes a very dedicated person to devote the energies and efforts into our daily routines. Will licensing each graduate ensure good work? Or a full time farrier? Or a farrier with a long lasting business?
The third point on this page of their "Special Report" talks about developing a single"National Farrier Standards Examination". Now this is probably one point I am in agreement with, sort of- As I stated in my previous post I DO feel that a farrier should have to take some kind of written test to prove knowledge of anatomy, locomotion, performance, pathologies and conformation. And that the practical should be a term test including video, photographs, a panel of objective judges and then a review of the same horse being reshod by the same testing farrier later with another review by video, photographs and the same panel of judges. But I don't think it should be based on AFA standards of shoeing! I frimly beleive that their standards of shoeing have been a huge contributing factor to the problems we continue to see in many horse's feet and footwork!
This paragraph goes on to say,"The AFA can then fulfill its mission of education, and get out of the testing business." AH hah! I knew the truth would reveal itself! They finally admit that their certification has been a BUSINESS! Which anyone who is in business is in business to MAKE MONEY!!
OK, they want to establish a "National Farrier Standards Exam" but gee, they still want to be able to leave their OWN AFA certification test program in effect as a way for farriers to achieve "higher status"! Do we bow down now to them? Or just see them for the conceited presumptious organization they are presenting themselves to be? Oh yeah, and they go on to say they'd be happy to also offer their CJF test for those who really wanted to advance their skills!
The fourth and final point to their"Special report" on this page talks about encouraging each state to set up their own Farrier Registration Boards, but being the magnanimous folks the AFA are they are willing to "Grandfather" in all farriers in business at the time of this change - provided they agree to being registered!
So here on the one hand they are saying that the current work force of farriers doesn't measure up to being "qualified farriers", and they lack skills and knowledge; while on the other hand they will just slide all of us ne'er do wells into their National base of Licensed registered farriers! WOW! Everybody must've got zapped with a brain beam!
So now the AFA is proposing MORE government involvement in our daily lives! Not just an AFA governing body, but State and National government too! So let's see they want us to be licensed like typical tradesman such as electricians and plumbers and other professionals like Doctors and Lawyers too, right? Here let me break THAT kind of regulation down for you:
School tuition
Nat'L Farrier Standards Exam Licensing and fee.
AFA Certification test and fee(If you feel you want to express your skills as being above the remainder of your classmates.)
AFA CJF test and fee if you feel the need to prove you are (according to the AFA top banana).
City License and fee and renewal- (to operate a business in that city)- Will you need to get a license for each city for each horseowner you travel too? Don't know- you'll have to check with that municipality I'm sure.
County License and fee and renewal- See above deifiniton
State License and fee and renewal- ditto above definition.
National License fee renewal
There will most likely be a regional or district distinction licensing in there also.
And what about the farriers that travel the show circuits? Doing business in other states? Are they exempt? Do they have to obtain temporary licenses? Pay temporary fees?
Anybody else tired of just thinking about these fees and licenses?
I wonder how many horses we'd get hired to trim when we start charging 70 bucks a horse for a trim-just so we can be licensed farriers!
This so called "Special Report" is starting to look like "throne room reading"! It goes on to say that these steps SHOULD be taken because NOW "farriers will be recognized as professionals, bringing honor and dignity to the profession."
YEAH RIGHT! What planet are they from? I don't care how many licenses I got in my back pocket, or certificates hanging on my wall; heck I could tattoo "Certified Farrier" across my forehead and the majority of horseowners would still call me a "blacksmith" or a "furrier" or a "hoof clipper"!
And the first time dobbin comes up lame- you think they'll pick up that foot and remove the botttle cap stuck there? Oh know- they'll call me at 11:30 at night and whine how Lightening is lame and I just put shoes on him yesterday and they got a show tomorrow so I gotta get there first thing in the morning to FIX him! Yeah, and my nice new license will transform all those goof balls into knowledgeable, respectful paying on time clients too!
Education of the horseowning PUBLIC is where we need to focus our attentions along with education of our own! NOT Licensing!
To be certain that they keep you rattled and on the edge of your seat ready to jump to the ballot box thay warn you again, WRONGFULLY I MIGHT ADD, "The Florida Law Is Just The Beginning."
Remember our Florida law(SB958) was changed this April to deliberately and definitively SEPERATE farrier practices from being perceived and accountable as Veterinary practices!
I won't go into my views on their resolutions as I'll just be repeating myself, and you all have been very patient reading this dissertation.
The AFA did NOT, has NOT and apparently WILL NOT do the thorough research and proper quoting of sources in order that they may sway farriers to their dark side!
Please research your own State laws and think hard about what this organization is trying to do, and look deep into your pockets for the bucks this will inevitably cost us!
Kim Hillegas
Feet First Farrier Service
I printed out and read the "Special Report" To AfA Board of Directors which is listed on the American Farriers Journal Home Page. First I'd ike to say that the underlying current of the entire paper has an alarmist attitude!
To take a text written in 1910 and insert the word "farrier" wherever "medical' or "doctor" was originally used is IMO extremely subversive!
As important as our profession is to the horse world I for one do NOT claim to put myself on an equal level (nor above) those in the medical field!
There was a reason that the medical field needed regulating way back in 1910- because of all the crack pots and snake oil sellers out there electrifying people and singeing them to supposed better health! Come to think of it THAT still goes on only now its under the moniker "Holistic".
While I DO agree that a lot of people claiming to be professional farriers and taking money from people shouldn't be allowed near a horse until they can identify it's bones, tendons and muscles(or at least know which breed of horse is standing in the cross ties); I do NOT think that the AFA should be the one to administrate regulation nor do I feel that farriers need to be LICENSED! (Please read my first post for my reasons- as I don't want to have to retype all that all over again.)
After you get through reading the 1910 propoganda we now get the definitions of "Professionalism" and "Intellect". I can't argue with Webster. But I wonder if the AFA has the intellect to understand what they are proposing! I know through first hand experience that many already AFA CF and AFA CJF's are NOT professionals(even though their business cards say so)! There are a few who are Pros, but the majority do NOT do professional footwork!
The "Special Report" goes on to compare populations of The United Kingdom with the population of The United States, then attempts to make a correlation of farriers per capita.
However, I was under the impression that farriers worked on number of head of horses? NOT people!
The AFA claims to use numbers from a "published source right after they say that those numbers are hard to find! HUH???
They go on to estimate the number of head of horses, then an estimation of full time farriers and then they are generous enough to give each of us full time farriers a 250 horse roster to make our businesses with! Magnanimous of them! Wouldn't you say so? So is the AFA proposing that it would be illegal for part-time farriers to ply their trades?
The next paragraph deals with anecdotal evidence of people entering and leaving the farrier industry which creates competition for established farriers. Well isn't that sort of an oxymoron? How do new wet behind the ears farriers challenge established farrier's businesses? It has been my experience that the new guy on the block gets the horses and clients nobody wants to do anyway!
Sure these new guys come out and undercut the fees of established farriers but who wants to work for cheapskates? If I've been keeping that horse sound for several years now and the horseowner choses to go with a newby who is 5 or ten bucks cheaper than me how is my being "Licensed" going to stop that?
Then we get to read about Schools and course offerings and the AFA does touch breifly on the new fad we are seeing of the 8 - 16 hour zip course on natural barefoot trimming for backyard horse owners ( again read EL CHEAPO here). How is my being licensed going to change that? And if these people are going to do their own horses - I say more power to 'em- they'll call one of us when Dobbin hurts their back or gets so lame he can't walk. Is the AFA proposing to make it illegal to trim your own horse's feet?
The AFA's final blurb on the industry and manpower issue seems concerned that the student won't know what they are going to get for their money. Well, any school I looked into had a list of their course offerings, the expectations of the student and what educational level you would be leaving with dependent on the course you signed up for! IS the AFA proposing that only schools accredited by them will turn out "professional" quality farriers? Sounds comuunistic to me! I'd imagine that a lawyer from Harvard thinks they are better than Lawyers graduating from Princeton- wouldn't you? Wouldn't the proof be in whomever's business is more successful? Especially in whomever is still plying their profession 15 years or more later?
OK, now we get to the REALLY REALLY Scarey part of their presentation. (Can we say Marxist here?) First they WRONGLY state "The State of Florida has recently enacted a veterinary practice act which includes farriers, defining farrier work as veterinary practice and lumps farriers with equine massage therapists, and equine chiropractors." I will say this very s l o w l y and very CLEARLY the AFA is DEAD WRONG on this statement! I live in Florida! I was part of the movement that defined that bill! The bill (Florida SB958) clearly SEPERATES, I'll say that again; CLEARLY SEPERATES the farrier and many othe equine health care providers FROM the veterinary practices law! We pushed deliberately for clear wording on the veterinary law because the OLD law HAD listed farriers in as veterinary practices! You can erad the full wording of the law at http://www.flsenate.gov when you get to the main page on the sidebar where it says "jump to bill" input this number: 958 you can then view the wording of the bill in PDF form or as a web page. SO PLEASE DO NOT be scared by the AFA's tactics to bully you into thinking farriers are under the same laws as Vets! At least NOT in the state of FLorida! I cannot speak for Pennsylvania or Arizona- someone else will have to research those AFA claims!
Keep reading folks! This gets better! Drink another cup of coffee!
The AFA goes on to talk about licensing for Physicians and Lawyers and regulated crafts like plumbers and electricians. well, such crafts deal with finite, static, exacting specifications. This pipe needs to be schedule such and such for hot water, or cold water, or specific pressures. This wire needs to be such and such guage for a specific amperage etc/ Finites that can be determined in a laboratory and according to specific formulas. The farrier that developes the specific formula to keep any horse sound and performing its best under any condition regardless of its management will be the farrier the world will put on a throne! Horses are not static, nor specific, nor good scientific specimens!
Physicians and lawyers have specific codes, ethics, governing bodies, mal practice insurance, ongoing required regulated educational courses and while I'd LOVE to rake in the big bucks they do, I certainly don't want their headaches! Nor do I want to be the brunt of derisionary "lawyer type Jokes" Let's see: "A lawyer, a doctor and a farrier all walked into a bar....." Nope, doesn't quite work does it?
The next page is titled:
"What should the AFA do, and why should we do it?"
Oh! oh! pick me! Pick me! I can answer that!
You should do NOTHING because it is NOT necessary that YOU do MORE than you already
have done! Period. This should really be end of sentence. But I'll elaborate... come on you didn't think I was gonna stop now did you? Here is where you really get to understand the reasoning behind the AFA's wanting to regulate and license us.
Their first point wants to survey every farrier school in North America now- not just the US! OK, I'll admit I don't know how many Farrier Schools are in Mexico or Canada but in the beginning of this "Special Report" the AFA was only talking about farrier education in the U.S.! When did Mexico and Canada become states? Is Cuba going to be part of their survey too?
This survey is to document the "quality of instruction, instructor qualifications, physical facilities, costs, admission requirements, student retention, and curriculum. Ok, wel,l except for the first two the remainder can be sheer number input and statistical information. Quality of instruction and Instructor Qualifications are definitely subjective and who will supply the criteria to judge these on? The AFA? I sincerely hope NOT!
I really like the part where the AFA NOW will accept input from "all farriers and all farrier organizations, not just the AFA". Hmmm isn't that a new slant? Isn't their own "Special Report" and subsequent undertaking and desire to be the governing body to regulate and license farriers at odds with that statement?
Their second point goes on to explain how they want to develop a model curriculum so that there would be a "UNIFORM BODY OF KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS". Uh HUH, again, based on which criteria? Who says that the AFA way of farrier work is the only way and the exact way to provide proper hoofcare? Kinda leaves out individualism and creative thinking doesn't it?
The AFA does go on to say they'll accept input from other farrier organizations... you mean they are going to be willing to alter their current standards? They will be willing to LISTEN to other sources?
...and then get this, "cooperation from but not under the control of Veterinarians"!
Since I am already swimming upstream I might as well tread water and state something that all of us have said at least once: "Since when does a VET know proper hoofcare?" Now, before any vets reading this get their nose in a crook, I am sure there are a bunch of you out there with years of experience and even many with farrier skills and backgrounds that actually have a great understanding of the horse's foot; and even a few of you work closely with farrier organizations and can disseminate some very good information. But you don't do our job every day(and most I've met , wouldn't want to; we don't do your job every day(nor would many of us want to); but for some reason the average horseowner thinks that because YOU have a "Dr." In front of your name , you know more about the foot than we do! Both of us know that you get a limited amount of course hours in hoof care and unless you specialize in lameness then you only have those few hours worth of knowledge. Sorry, but when you work with something every day you tend to develope a better understanding of it PROVIDED you are a progressive thinker and have an insatiable curiosity- which a GOOD farrier does have! Now that I have made my disclaimer to get back to the AFA's "Special Report"...
They go on in their second point to talk about basic requirements of physical structure, faculty and competence then they go on to accreditation. WHO will be assigning accreditation? And they say that schools that don't meet that criteria will lose their accredititation. Mighty powerful aren't they? We give it and we take it away! So says the AFA!
Now comes the revelation!: They say that with such an accredited model in place then it would be possible to look for grant money or other financial support from equine organizations, state extension services or foundations to provide quality education for the farrier student.
WHOAH! WHAT?
First they say they will be designing a "specific curriculum" to ensure "uniform knowledge and skills" and they will be determining which schools get accredited based on meeting those criteria, but now the schools need grant monies and financial support to provide "quality education"? And tuition from students is for....? Will these grant monies be available as scholarships? or to offset tuition costs?
Hmmm, are you beginning to see the real reason behhind the AFA push to regulate and license farriers? Could it be that they saw the number of schools teaching the tremendous amounts of students and realized the potential for dollars that the AFA was NOT getting because each school has their own graduating Certificate?
Sure, I'll grant you that not every student that graduates from farrier school becomes a full time farrier. Heck, many students don't even finish the course! This profession has a high attrition rate! It takes a very dedicated person to devote the energies and efforts into our daily routines. Will licensing each graduate ensure good work? Or a full time farrier? Or a farrier with a long lasting business?
The third point on this page of their "Special Report" talks about developing a single"National Farrier Standards Examination". Now this is probably one point I am in agreement with, sort of- As I stated in my previous post I DO feel that a farrier should have to take some kind of written test to prove knowledge of anatomy, locomotion, performance, pathologies and conformation. And that the practical should be a term test including video, photographs, a panel of objective judges and then a review of the same horse being reshod by the same testing farrier later with another review by video, photographs and the same panel of judges. But I don't think it should be based on AFA standards of shoeing! I frimly beleive that their standards of shoeing have been a huge contributing factor to the problems we continue to see in many horse's feet and footwork!
This paragraph goes on to say,"The AFA can then fulfill its mission of education, and get out of the testing business." AH hah! I knew the truth would reveal itself! They finally admit that their certification has been a BUSINESS! Which anyone who is in business is in business to MAKE MONEY!!
OK, they want to establish a "National Farrier Standards Exam" but gee, they still want to be able to leave their OWN AFA certification test program in effect as a way for farriers to achieve "higher status"! Do we bow down now to them? Or just see them for the conceited presumptious organization they are presenting themselves to be? Oh yeah, and they go on to say they'd be happy to also offer their CJF test for those who really wanted to advance their skills!
The fourth and final point to their"Special report" on this page talks about encouraging each state to set up their own Farrier Registration Boards, but being the magnanimous folks the AFA are they are willing to "Grandfather" in all farriers in business at the time of this change - provided they agree to being registered!
So here on the one hand they are saying that the current work force of farriers doesn't measure up to being "qualified farriers", and they lack skills and knowledge; while on the other hand they will just slide all of us ne'er do wells into their National base of Licensed registered farriers! WOW! Everybody must've got zapped with a brain beam!
So now the AFA is proposing MORE government involvement in our daily lives! Not just an AFA governing body, but State and National government too! So let's see they want us to be licensed like typical tradesman such as electricians and plumbers and other professionals like Doctors and Lawyers too, right? Here let me break THAT kind of regulation down for you:
School tuition
Nat'L Farrier Standards Exam Licensing and fee.
AFA Certification test and fee(If you feel you want to express your skills as being above the remainder of your classmates.)
AFA CJF test and fee if you feel the need to prove you are (according to the AFA top banana).
City License and fee and renewal- (to operate a business in that city)- Will you need to get a license for each city for each horseowner you travel too? Don't know- you'll have to check with that municipality I'm sure.
County License and fee and renewal- See above deifiniton
State License and fee and renewal- ditto above definition.
National License fee renewal
There will most likely be a regional or district distinction licensing in there also.
And what about the farriers that travel the show circuits? Doing business in other states? Are they exempt? Do they have to obtain temporary licenses? Pay temporary fees?
Anybody else tired of just thinking about these fees and licenses?
I wonder how many horses we'd get hired to trim when we start charging 70 bucks a horse for a trim-just so we can be licensed farriers!
This so called "Special Report" is starting to look like "throne room reading"! It goes on to say that these steps SHOULD be taken because NOW "farriers will be recognized as professionals, bringing honor and dignity to the profession."
YEAH RIGHT! What planet are they from? I don't care how many licenses I got in my back pocket, or certificates hanging on my wall; heck I could tattoo "Certified Farrier" across my forehead and the majority of horseowners would still call me a "blacksmith" or a "furrier" or a "hoof clipper"!
And the first time dobbin comes up lame- you think they'll pick up that foot and remove the botttle cap stuck there? Oh know- they'll call me at 11:30 at night and whine how Lightening is lame and I just put shoes on him yesterday and they got a show tomorrow so I gotta get there first thing in the morning to FIX him! Yeah, and my nice new license will transform all those goof balls into knowledgeable, respectful paying on time clients too!
Education of the horseowning PUBLIC is where we need to focus our attentions along with education of our own! NOT Licensing!
To be certain that they keep you rattled and on the edge of your seat ready to jump to the ballot box thay warn you again, WRONGFULLY I MIGHT ADD, "The Florida Law Is Just The Beginning."
Remember our Florida law(SB958) was changed this April to deliberately and definitively SEPERATE farrier practices from being perceived and accountable as Veterinary practices!
I won't go into my views on their resolutions as I'll just be repeating myself, and you all have been very patient reading this dissertation.
The AFA did NOT, has NOT and apparently WILL NOT do the thorough research and proper quoting of sources in order that they may sway farriers to their dark side!
Please research your own State laws and think hard about what this organization is trying to do, and look deep into your pockets for the bucks this will inevitably cost us!
Kim Hillegas
Feet First Farrier Service
Reply at
05/12/2005 - 10:28 am
reply from
Ronald Kramedjian
When I read all that is currently being written about the issue of licensing / registration I am a bit shocked at the self centered focus of the writers. It also seems to me that there are a couple of very important participants to the conversation that are being ignored almost completely in the frenzy to "protect our individual freedom." These participants are the horses and the horse owners. What about the hundreds of horses that are hurt by unskilled Farriers on a regular basis? What about the horse owners that have lost horses because of unskilled Farriers? As a profession do we have any obligation to them? Don’t horse owners have more of a stake in this conversation that we have thus far seen them given?
If we are going to make the claim that Farriery is a profession, we have to keep our ethical obligation to the horse first and foremost. We must begin and continue this conversation with a single minded commitment to what is going to be good for horses in the long run. I expect that sometimes that conversation may make people uncomfortable, but that is OK because the best test of ideas is the crucible of debate. I also expect that having such a group of rugged individualists actually put aside their own egos long enough to put the interests of horses first will be a bit of a challenge as well. But I deeply believe that if we do keep this deeply held ethical commitment to the horse in mind, that which is good for our profession as a whole and for us as individual professionals will naturally follow.
However, if the conversation continues to focus on non-horse health related issues we will continue down the path that leads so many into hypocrisy. Those hypocrites are more concerned about not being accountable to a good standard of care and their individual financial well being than they are about the well being of horses that this profession is supposed to serve.
The AFA has made the decision to begin the conversation. You don't have to like the AFA. You don't have to respect the AFA. You do not even have to think that the AFA should be involved. Pointing at the AFA as a bad guy is just a smoke screen. If you really care about horses, you do have an ethical obligation to engage in the conversation. If you think the AFA has something wrong, you have an ethical obligation to engage in the conversation to correct the errors. But when I say engage in the conversation I do not mean engaging in the kind of self aggrandized rhetoric that I am already witnessing, I mean documenting your point of view with facts and then working as a respected mature professional to win over other respected mature professionals to your point of view. To refuse to engage in this conversation is nothing more or less than demonstrating for all to see that you really do not have a professional’s ethical obligation to the horse.
Frankly I do not much care who or what organization leads this discussion. I do care that the discussion happens and that we get and stay focused on the horse and its proper care. Since the AFA has had the courage to step up to the plate to begin the discussion, it is my hope that other organizations and individuals will join it in the discussion instead of trying to derail the discussion. At least by their behavior we will be able to see who really is ethically committed getting it done right and working for horses and who is more interested in themselves and their own power structure.
Ron
If we are going to make the claim that Farriery is a profession, we have to keep our ethical obligation to the horse first and foremost. We must begin and continue this conversation with a single minded commitment to what is going to be good for horses in the long run. I expect that sometimes that conversation may make people uncomfortable, but that is OK because the best test of ideas is the crucible of debate. I also expect that having such a group of rugged individualists actually put aside their own egos long enough to put the interests of horses first will be a bit of a challenge as well. But I deeply believe that if we do keep this deeply held ethical commitment to the horse in mind, that which is good for our profession as a whole and for us as individual professionals will naturally follow.
However, if the conversation continues to focus on non-horse health related issues we will continue down the path that leads so many into hypocrisy. Those hypocrites are more concerned about not being accountable to a good standard of care and their individual financial well being than they are about the well being of horses that this profession is supposed to serve.
The AFA has made the decision to begin the conversation. You don't have to like the AFA. You don't have to respect the AFA. You do not even have to think that the AFA should be involved. Pointing at the AFA as a bad guy is just a smoke screen. If you really care about horses, you do have an ethical obligation to engage in the conversation. If you think the AFA has something wrong, you have an ethical obligation to engage in the conversation to correct the errors. But when I say engage in the conversation I do not mean engaging in the kind of self aggrandized rhetoric that I am already witnessing, I mean documenting your point of view with facts and then working as a respected mature professional to win over other respected mature professionals to your point of view. To refuse to engage in this conversation is nothing more or less than demonstrating for all to see that you really do not have a professional’s ethical obligation to the horse.
Frankly I do not much care who or what organization leads this discussion. I do care that the discussion happens and that we get and stay focused on the horse and its proper care. Since the AFA has had the courage to step up to the plate to begin the discussion, it is my hope that other organizations and individuals will join it in the discussion instead of trying to derail the discussion. At least by their behavior we will be able to see who really is ethically committed getting it done right and working for horses and who is more interested in themselves and their own power structure.
Ron
Reply at
05/12/2005 - 10:46 am
reply from
Ronald Kramedjian
Kim,
Quoting your post.
>>OK, now we get to the REALLY REALLY Scarey part of their presentation. (Can we say Marxist here?) First they WRONGLY state "The State of Florida has recently enacted a veterinary practice act which includes farriers, defining farrier work as veterinary practice and lumps farriers with equine massage therapists, and equine chiropractors." I will say this very s l o w l y and very CLEARLY the AFA is DEAD WRONG on this statement! I live in Florida! I was part of the movement that defined that bill! The bill (Florida SB958) clearly SEPERATES, I'll say that again; CLEARLY SEPERATES the farrier and many othe equine health care providers FROM the veterinary practices law! We pushed deliberately for clear wording on the veterinary law because the OLD law HAD listed farriers in as veterinary practices! You can erad the full wording of the law athttp://www.flsenate.gov when you get to the main page on the sidebar where it says "jump to bill" input this number: 958 you can then view the wording of the bill in PDF form or as a web page. SO PLEASE DO NOT be scared by the AFA's tactics to bully you into thinking farriers are under the same laws as Vets! At least NOT in the state of FLorida! I cannot speak for Pennsylvania or Arizona- someone else will have to research those AFA claims!<<
May I correct you slightly. According to the website that you pointed to, 958 bill died in committee on 5/6/05.
Next, FL did indeed pass the law as the AFA specified. Nothing dishonest about that statement and that law is still in effect.
You were not involved in developing the vetranary practice act were you? No, you were involved in the failed attempt to add an exclusion that would have included farriers. Unfortuantely for you and us, that bill would also have allowed everything that the vets are targeting as well, which I suspect is why it died.
You want to claim hitting a home run. Go get a bill that only included exempting farriers. Who knows, even the Vet's might back that one.
Ron
Quoting your post.
>>OK, now we get to the REALLY REALLY Scarey part of their presentation. (Can we say Marxist here?) First they WRONGLY state "The State of Florida has recently enacted a veterinary practice act which includes farriers, defining farrier work as veterinary practice and lumps farriers with equine massage therapists, and equine chiropractors." I will say this very s l o w l y and very CLEARLY the AFA is DEAD WRONG on this statement! I live in Florida! I was part of the movement that defined that bill! The bill (Florida SB958) clearly SEPERATES, I'll say that again; CLEARLY SEPERATES the farrier and many othe equine health care providers FROM the veterinary practices law! We pushed deliberately for clear wording on the veterinary law because the OLD law HAD listed farriers in as veterinary practices! You can erad the full wording of the law athttp://www.flsenate.gov when you get to the main page on the sidebar where it says "jump to bill" input this number: 958 you can then view the wording of the bill in PDF form or as a web page. SO PLEASE DO NOT be scared by the AFA's tactics to bully you into thinking farriers are under the same laws as Vets! At least NOT in the state of FLorida! I cannot speak for Pennsylvania or Arizona- someone else will have to research those AFA claims!<<
May I correct you slightly. According to the website that you pointed to, 958 bill died in committee on 5/6/05.
Next, FL did indeed pass the law as the AFA specified. Nothing dishonest about that statement and that law is still in effect.
You were not involved in developing the vetranary practice act were you? No, you were involved in the failed attempt to add an exclusion that would have included farriers. Unfortuantely for you and us, that bill would also have allowed everything that the vets are targeting as well, which I suspect is why it died.
You want to claim hitting a home run. Go get a bill that only included exempting farriers. Who knows, even the Vet's might back that one.
Ron
Reply at
05/12/2005 - 11:35 am
reply from
Rick Burten
Quite a tirade by Kim. Off target, but impressive none the less.
Testing one's knowledge of anatomy, etal is not nearly enough to qualify one as having the requisite capabilities to perform farrier service or for that matter trim only services.
Practical application, judged to a uniform standard, allows everyone to compete on a "level playing field"
The AFA practical exams do just that. No one ever said that the standards used for a STANDARDIZED exam were those that should be used for each and every horse. They are there so that each individual can be judged against a uniform standard. And , even if you disagree with using that standard on a day to day basis, you have to be able to show that you can perfom in a certain way regardless of what you do every day. Think of the Standards as a veterinary trimming and shoeing prescription. You have to fill it. If you are competent, you will be able to do so. If not, maybe you shouldn't be shoeing horses.
I hear a lot of whining and complaining but it is only coming from those who have either attempted the certifications and failed, or those who can come up with more excuses than Carter has liver pills, about why they refuse to take the certifications. What a load of crap! These folks give EXCUSES, not valid REASONS. If they truely want to complain, then then should first take and pass the tests and then work from within the organization(the AFA) to make them better.
Now I continue to read about how all these non-certified, non-AFA members ride in on their white horses and undo all the evil that AFA CFs and CJFs inflict on horses. Again, this is a load of crap.
Are there instances where folks with certifications make mistakes or otherwise screw things up? sure there are. But we can say the same about any profession. But at least those folks have shown that at one time they had the requisite skill and knowledge to meet a uniform standard. Personally, where I think the system fails is in not requiring continuing education AND retests at specific points in the individual's future(3yrs out, 5years out, etc., whatever) This will only truely come to pass when and if everyone is registered Nationally.
There is a huge problem with the idea of registration. Most farriers like to think of themselves as a last bastion of independence and individuality and want no government interference.
This allows for a lot of less than qualified individuals to begin to work in the profession.
It has also lead to a plethora of complaints by consumers and from this has evolved the "new" cottage industry of barefoot only trimming. And now that it seems to have caught on in certain areas, we are beginning to see complaints even from that quarter regarding the quality and efficacy of the work provided.
So, if we are going to register/license farriers, lets not stop there. Anyone who provides any form of hoof care to any horse other than their own, should be subject to the same rules and regulations.
And I would sure like to see the AFA get off their collective duffs and enact a 'trimming for barefoot' endorsement (by means of practical examination) to their CJF certification. (In point of fact I made a motion to that effect at the BOD meeting a few years ago. Needless to say, it was overwhelmingly defeated. Perhaps we should all wonder why.) And, to further aussage the egos of the whiners and complainers, I suggested that this endorsement be accomplished by means of a field exam, where in the applicant(supplicant?) evaluated an individual animal, wrote down his/her trimming prescription, defended it(as in when one defends one's master or doctoral thesis), and then, if there were no substantive arguments against it, proceeded to fulfill his/her prescription, and is then judged on how well he/she met the standards that they themselves set).
As for the rest of it, If you don't like the shoeing standards, then once you have completed the exam, go back and do whatever you think is correct. No one will stop you.
So, quit whining and making excuses. Just go and do it. already.
And , for those of you who think that either the AFA or the hosting chapter/organization are getting rich doing certifications. Think again.
Rick Burten
(laspsed, but I'm sending in my dues, promise Brian, member AFA 3414, CJF and AFA approved tester(when I get my dues caught up again.)
Testing one's knowledge of anatomy, etal is not nearly enough to qualify one as having the requisite capabilities to perform farrier service or for that matter trim only services.
Practical application, judged to a uniform standard, allows everyone to compete on a "level playing field"
The AFA practical exams do just that. No one ever said that the standards used for a STANDARDIZED exam were those that should be used for each and every horse. They are there so that each individual can be judged against a uniform standard. And , even if you disagree with using that standard on a day to day basis, you have to be able to show that you can perfom in a certain way regardless of what you do every day. Think of the Standards as a veterinary trimming and shoeing prescription. You have to fill it. If you are competent, you will be able to do so. If not, maybe you shouldn't be shoeing horses.
I hear a lot of whining and complaining but it is only coming from those who have either attempted the certifications and failed, or those who can come up with more excuses than Carter has liver pills, about why they refuse to take the certifications. What a load of crap! These folks give EXCUSES, not valid REASONS. If they truely want to complain, then then should first take and pass the tests and then work from within the organization(the AFA) to make them better.
Now I continue to read about how all these non-certified, non-AFA members ride in on their white horses and undo all the evil that AFA CFs and CJFs inflict on horses. Again, this is a load of crap.
Are there instances where folks with certifications make mistakes or otherwise screw things up? sure there are. But we can say the same about any profession. But at least those folks have shown that at one time they had the requisite skill and knowledge to meet a uniform standard. Personally, where I think the system fails is in not requiring continuing education AND retests at specific points in the individual's future(3yrs out, 5years out, etc., whatever) This will only truely come to pass when and if everyone is registered Nationally.
There is a huge problem with the idea of registration. Most farriers like to think of themselves as a last bastion of independence and individuality and want no government interference.
This allows for a lot of less than qualified individuals to begin to work in the profession.
It has also lead to a plethora of complaints by consumers and from this has evolved the "new" cottage industry of barefoot only trimming. And now that it seems to have caught on in certain areas, we are beginning to see complaints even from that quarter regarding the quality and efficacy of the work provided.
So, if we are going to register/license farriers, lets not stop there. Anyone who provides any form of hoof care to any horse other than their own, should be subject to the same rules and regulations.
And I would sure like to see the AFA get off their collective duffs and enact a 'trimming for barefoot' endorsement (by means of practical examination) to their CJF certification. (In point of fact I made a motion to that effect at the BOD meeting a few years ago. Needless to say, it was overwhelmingly defeated. Perhaps we should all wonder why.) And, to further aussage the egos of the whiners and complainers, I suggested that this endorsement be accomplished by means of a field exam, where in the applicant(supplicant?) evaluated an individual animal, wrote down his/her trimming prescription, defended it(as in when one defends one's master or doctoral thesis), and then, if there were no substantive arguments against it, proceeded to fulfill his/her prescription, and is then judged on how well he/she met the standards that they themselves set).
As for the rest of it, If you don't like the shoeing standards, then once you have completed the exam, go back and do whatever you think is correct. No one will stop you.
So, quit whining and making excuses. Just go and do it. already.
And , for those of you who think that either the AFA or the hosting chapter/organization are getting rich doing certifications. Think again.
Rick Burten
(laspsed, but I'm sending in my dues, promise Brian, member AFA 3414, CJF and AFA approved tester(when I get my dues caught up again.)
Reply at
05/12/2005 - 11:31 pm
reply from
Kim Hillegas
Yeah, that's classic! I am forthright enough to respond to this and then get trounced by people apparently members of the AFA!
Members who say that this matter needs discussion. Well, hello? McFLy? Isn't that what I am doing?
Just because my opinion happens to be different from yours and your membership choice of organization?
And you say that if my opinion differs from the AFA as to hoof care and footwork that I should then JOIN that organization in order to CHANGE it? WHY? Why should I pay money to belong to an Organization I disagree with?
I disagree with PETA too- and skinheads- you think I'm about to join their organizations just so I can change them from with in? PUHLEEZE! The arrogance of such a notion!
My post had MANY references to the need to educate ourselves and the horseowning public! I personally publish an 80 page booklet that I give to everyone of my new clients, as well as offer for sale at shows and clinics. This booklet is FULL of ideas on horse care, maintenance, hoof care and all kinds of things related to horses! Granted, since it is MY booklet it is definitely slanted towards MY personal views and procedures. But am I trying to force it down the throats of the horse public? Or Force MY views of hoofcare on fellow farriers? Certainly NOT!
As to the comments inferring selfishness regarding monetary issues, well sure- I'm selfish about WHO gets WHAT from MY pocket- who isn't?
When was the last time YOU volunteered information or time? I regularly get involved with Pony Clubs, 4-H and local Horse clubs at MY expense of time and money because I DO care about the MISinformation out there!
I DO regularly go behind AFA CF and AFA CJFs whose poor work proves that apparently as Ric said: they may have had the skill to pass the test and acquire certification levels- but they certainly are chosing to NOT use that knowledge!
I did NOT say that ALL AFA Cfs or CJFs are poor farriers- just a tremendous LOT of them in my area!
I am NOT opposed to education nor testing(please see my first post)- I AM opposed to the dictatorship that the AFA is wanting to impose on the world of farriers! I doubt I am the only one out there that feels this way- I just happen to be one who is not afraid to speak OUT against such a monopoly!
It also amuses me that one who speaks so highly of the so called benefits to being certified has admittedly allowed their own personal memberhip lapse. Guess membership with that organization isn't so important afterall?
How'd you know I ride a white horse Rick?
Members who say that this matter needs discussion. Well, hello? McFLy? Isn't that what I am doing?
Just because my opinion happens to be different from yours and your membership choice of organization?
And you say that if my opinion differs from the AFA as to hoof care and footwork that I should then JOIN that organization in order to CHANGE it? WHY? Why should I pay money to belong to an Organization I disagree with?
I disagree with PETA too- and skinheads- you think I'm about to join their organizations just so I can change them from with in? PUHLEEZE! The arrogance of such a notion!
My post had MANY references to the need to educate ourselves and the horseowning public! I personally publish an 80 page booklet that I give to everyone of my new clients, as well as offer for sale at shows and clinics. This booklet is FULL of ideas on horse care, maintenance, hoof care and all kinds of things related to horses! Granted, since it is MY booklet it is definitely slanted towards MY personal views and procedures. But am I trying to force it down the throats of the horse public? Or Force MY views of hoofcare on fellow farriers? Certainly NOT!
As to the comments inferring selfishness regarding monetary issues, well sure- I'm selfish about WHO gets WHAT from MY pocket- who isn't?
When was the last time YOU volunteered information or time? I regularly get involved with Pony Clubs, 4-H and local Horse clubs at MY expense of time and money because I DO care about the MISinformation out there!
I DO regularly go behind AFA CF and AFA CJFs whose poor work proves that apparently as Ric said: they may have had the skill to pass the test and acquire certification levels- but they certainly are chosing to NOT use that knowledge!
I did NOT say that ALL AFA Cfs or CJFs are poor farriers- just a tremendous LOT of them in my area!
I am NOT opposed to education nor testing(please see my first post)- I AM opposed to the dictatorship that the AFA is wanting to impose on the world of farriers! I doubt I am the only one out there that feels this way- I just happen to be one who is not afraid to speak OUT against such a monopoly!
It also amuses me that one who speaks so highly of the so called benefits to being certified has admittedly allowed their own personal memberhip lapse. Guess membership with that organization isn't so important afterall?
How'd you know I ride a white horse Rick?
Reply at
05/15/2005 - 6:10 pm
reply from
Rick Burten
Forthright? Perhaps you choose to call it that, but while it may have been, it was done in an attack mode. It is obvious you have a great dislike for the AFA and what it has , does, and will in the future, accomplish. You can stand on the tracks and get run over the train, or you can get a ticket and get on board.
And, you were not trounced as you put it, your viterpitude was answered in a much more reasoned balanced manner.
You ask, why should you pay money to belong to an organization with which you disagree? Well, for one thing, no one agrees with everything any organization says or does, but if it matters, they become or stay members and work from within to effect change or moderation.
Nice of you to offer to your customers your own versioin of hoofkeeping, Mein Kamp. Not that what you publish is wrong, but who knows if it is right? And then we learn that you sell, to the public, this mini-compendium of your opinions about hoof care/horse management so perhaps your purposes and disagreement with the AFA are not so pure and altruistic after all.
I volunteer my time, expertise and knowledge, all the time, to a variety of horse and non-horse groups and organizations. I just don't see any need to brag about it.
And, we can get into a "he did(or did not)/she did(or did not) discussion about certified farriers and non-certified farriers, but it is pointless. Like I said there are good/bad doctors, lawyers, CPS, and Indian Chiefs. And, you have not yet provided reasons, just lame(pardon the pun) excuses and whining.
Don't like the AFA method of testing? Then join the Guild of Professional Farriers. Their practical is a true field exam. You still have to know your way around a forge and bar stock, but, if you are competent, that should not be an obstacle. And, since the AFA is the most recognized orgazination here in the US, and is well known and reputed through out most of the civilized world, their standards and practices it would seem, are both reasonable and accepted by those who are looking for a way to better themselves.
Actually, it amuses or perhaps bemuses would be a better word, that I have been so remiss in remewing my membership. A situation which will be rectified this week.
And your guess is quite wrong. membership in the AFA is quite important to me and this is, as best I can recall, the first time I have been truely late in renewing my membership.
So, take some DiGel, or Rolaids or the like, loosen your belt so you are not feeling so cramped and uncomfortable, and try to lower your blood pressure.
"white horse..." 'twas just a figure of speech. But if you think you are some reicarnation of the Lone Ranger, I gotta tell you , you're not. Neither are you Cervantes.
Rick
And, you were not trounced as you put it, your viterpitude was answered in a much more reasoned balanced manner.
You ask, why should you pay money to belong to an organization with which you disagree? Well, for one thing, no one agrees with everything any organization says or does, but if it matters, they become or stay members and work from within to effect change or moderation.
Nice of you to offer to your customers your own versioin of hoofkeeping, Mein Kamp. Not that what you publish is wrong, but who knows if it is right? And then we learn that you sell, to the public, this mini-compendium of your opinions about hoof care/horse management so perhaps your purposes and disagreement with the AFA are not so pure and altruistic after all.
I volunteer my time, expertise and knowledge, all the time, to a variety of horse and non-horse groups and organizations. I just don't see any need to brag about it.
And, we can get into a "he did(or did not)/she did(or did not) discussion about certified farriers and non-certified farriers, but it is pointless. Like I said there are good/bad doctors, lawyers, CPS, and Indian Chiefs. And, you have not yet provided reasons, just lame(pardon the pun) excuses and whining.
Don't like the AFA method of testing? Then join the Guild of Professional Farriers. Their practical is a true field exam. You still have to know your way around a forge and bar stock, but, if you are competent, that should not be an obstacle. And, since the AFA is the most recognized orgazination here in the US, and is well known and reputed through out most of the civilized world, their standards and practices it would seem, are both reasonable and accepted by those who are looking for a way to better themselves.
Actually, it amuses or perhaps bemuses would be a better word, that I have been so remiss in remewing my membership. A situation which will be rectified this week.
And your guess is quite wrong. membership in the AFA is quite important to me and this is, as best I can recall, the first time I have been truely late in renewing my membership.
So, take some DiGel, or Rolaids or the like, loosen your belt so you are not feeling so cramped and uncomfortable, and try to lower your blood pressure.
"white horse..." 'twas just a figure of speech. But if you think you are some reicarnation of the Lone Ranger, I gotta tell you , you're not. Neither are you Cervantes.
Rick
Reply at
05/15/2005 - 9:19 pm
reply from
Debi Gurdock
I think that everyone makes very good points in there arguments.
I feel that the schools should be looked at and that a certain standard and curriculum should be set, ONLY so that the new farriers being turned out into the wild have a real sound foundation to build on.
I do hope that you all agree that the TRUE TEST will be in the real world and through our real experiences with our clients. It is that kind of TEST that NO organization can measure or regulate.
My fear is that the focus will come OFF what we are all here fore and that is to help the horse 1st and foremost. I do think that the most important thing here is to make sure that this IDEA does not go too far. YOU ALL KNOW WHAT I MEAN ! This can snowball into a monster and affect all of us in a way that is NOT in the best interest of the horse.
I personally have ZERO problems in being tested on my knowledge and competency as a farrier by the AFA or any other organization that wants to take a crack at it, "Bring it on" but, I do not want to be forced to join or become a member of ANY organization. It should be my choice to become a member of a group and my choice to offer them my hard earned dollar.
If the HORSE is the main focus here and is the ONLY reason that the AFA wants to register and test us all then I really have no issue with it. Send me the testing sites and their schedules and Ill be there; but do not ask me to become a member and, please do not ask me to pay for the initial certification, or pay dues, in fact please don’t ask me to open my wallet at all ……….. After all this is NOT about the $$$$$ … RIGHT ???????
Thanks for reading.
Debi :)
I feel that the schools should be looked at and that a certain standard and curriculum should be set, ONLY so that the new farriers being turned out into the wild have a real sound foundation to build on.
I do hope that you all agree that the TRUE TEST will be in the real world and through our real experiences with our clients. It is that kind of TEST that NO organization can measure or regulate.
My fear is that the focus will come OFF what we are all here fore and that is to help the horse 1st and foremost. I do think that the most important thing here is to make sure that this IDEA does not go too far. YOU ALL KNOW WHAT I MEAN ! This can snowball into a monster and affect all of us in a way that is NOT in the best interest of the horse.
I personally have ZERO problems in being tested on my knowledge and competency as a farrier by the AFA or any other organization that wants to take a crack at it, "Bring it on" but, I do not want to be forced to join or become a member of ANY organization. It should be my choice to become a member of a group and my choice to offer them my hard earned dollar.
If the HORSE is the main focus here and is the ONLY reason that the AFA wants to register and test us all then I really have no issue with it. Send me the testing sites and their schedules and Ill be there; but do not ask me to become a member and, please do not ask me to pay for the initial certification, or pay dues, in fact please don’t ask me to open my wallet at all ……….. After all this is NOT about the $$$$$ … RIGHT ???????
Thanks for reading.
Debi :)
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